Mary K. Greer hardly needs an introduction as her writings and work are so widely known and appreciated. She is regarded as a revolutionary, breaking all the rules regarding methods of learning and using tarot cards. Mary has forty years tarot experience and, as an author and teacher, emphasizes personal insight and creativity. As a tarot reader, she works as a ‘midwife of the soul,’ using techniques that are interactive, transformational and empowering - just 'RITE' in fact. Mary has an extremely informative and active blog at marygreer.wordpress.com.

Mary was kind enough to be interviewed by email, as part of the appreciation of the art and work of "Pixie," Pamela Colman Smith, whose Rider Waite/Smith deck was first issued a hundred years ago this year.

Malcolm Muckle
Mary, what does the artwork of “Pixie” Pamela Colman Smith mean to you? What is most appealing to you personally?

Mary Greer
This was the first tarot deck I ever saw and I was drawn to it immediately. As an English and Theatre Arts major who had been studying Jungian symbolism, I realized the images could be used as metaphors for the circumstances in a person’s life. It was as simple as telling stories about what was going on in the cards. I could also tell that the archetypal content of the cards pointed to so much more. I know of no other deck that as consistently evokes interpretative statements from total novices that match the meanings found in the book. At the same time, a certain ambiguity in the faces and scenes allows for a huge variety of individual responses to what is going on. It is these differences that are often keys to a reading.

Furthermore, the Major Arcana offers a highly integrated esoteric system, in which individual symbols (such as water or pillars) repeat and develop in ways that elucidate the esoteric and archetypal themes found at the heart of most myths and mystery schools. I like the unusual combination of simplicity and depth that allows someone who has never seen the cards before to interact with them meaningfully/ I can add additional layers to their significance and perceive links among the cards that bring everything together in patterns that reveal motivating complexes in the psyche.

Malcolm
Debussy and Whistler much appreciated PCS’s work, as did other contemporaries and critics; how is it that someone so recognised did not continue to grow in reputation?

Mary Greer
When I was researching Women of the Golden Dawn I discovered that, in Victorian and Edwardian England, women working in the arts and professions were believed to be taking away wages from more talented and deserving men who had to support an entire family. It was assumed that women were either supported by a male relative or had only had themselves to care for. Also, critics were more critical of and sought to find weaknesses in the work of women in order to support the belief that they could never be as talented as a man. Even today this is an issue in the USA as demonstrated by President Obama’s signing of the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act that finally allows more latitude for women to protest unfair paychecks for doing the same job as men who are paid more.

Malcolm
A gender-based glass ceiling…. But hasn’t it always been there? It’s really outside the scope of this interview, except for the aspect of archetypes within Tarot; if the male (of any species) is competitive and the female receptive, is this inequality inevitable? And I’ve often thought it reflected in the Rider Waite/Smith Swords ‘pips’.

Mary
For the most part, in the majority of world cultures, though not all. I don’t see the inequality as inevitable, but then I’m an optimist. Victorian England had a surfeit of women and there were even a few articles about what to do with the “redundant” (their word) old maids. But, generally speaking, the plight of these women was ignored; as a group they were “unseen.”

Malcolm
OK, moving on... the original members of the GD had to copy/create their own versions of a tarot deck; from all the derivatives of the RW/CS deck coming out now, how much do you think they aid the personal development of the user/creator/artist... or are they more or less - to put it unkindly - a commercial venture, or personality-dabbling in mysticism?

Mary
GD members had to copy their own decks partly because it was not cost effective to print such a small quantity but, much more importantly, it was to set the images precisely in their minds. They were also required to copy out all the teaching papers by hand (or typewriter) as a way of learning the material. There’s nothing commercial involved in this. It has to do with imbuing your magical tools with your own energy and setting the images in your mind in exact detail.

Malcolm
Yes, I agree that's the aim for “serious” tarotists; what about some of the lighter-weight decks, anime decks for example?

Mary
Though I don’t know much about them, I’d say they are commercial and artistic - catering to a particular pop cultural group.

Malcolm
Mary, your magnum opus Women of the Golden Dawn was magnificently and stupendously researched; it also portrayed the contemporary social, moral and economic issues of the time. Whereas the four "heroines" of WOTGD were able to come to terms with the world, PCS seems to have shied away from it and struggled to find a satisfactory relationship with it. Why do you think this was? Any strong indicators of that in her astrological chart?

Mary
I’m so glad you enjoyed Women of the Golden Dawn and appreciate all the work that went into it. I can’t comment on Pixie’s chart without studying it deeply - which I can’t do right now. I’m not sure how much each person “came to terms with the world,” as we’re only dealing with scant evidence and very little in their own words. Florence became ‘head’ of a women’s school in Ceylon (Sri Lanka), dying there, far from friends, of breast cancer. Moina Mathers was estranged from some Golden Dawn members while held in great esteem by others, however her authority was continually challenged by new GD members eager to make their own marks on the Order. Annie Horniman found solace in the Manchester Theatre, having been rejected by Yeats and others involved in Dublin’s Abbey Theatre. Maud Gonne, after being a rebel all her life, devoted herself to peace and the release of Irish political prisoners. Pixie lived with a good friend and was probably involved in artistic circles in Cornwall, though she died penniless. All of these women demonstrate how difficult it was for independent and creative women to have their work valued and to make their way alone. They each had their successes and their failures. They each paid a price for their rebellion against the conventions of the time.

Malcolm
Hm, it’s a pity that Pixie’s motto “Quod Tibi Id Aliis” (loose translation - "whatever you would have done to you, so do to others") didn’t work the other way around, for all of them.

So,... I know you sometimes use artwork in your workshops, maybe asking people to “draw out,” literally, some of their concerns, based on a selection or combination of cards. Why does this work so well?

Mary
First some clarification: I don’t ask them to draw their “concerns.” I simply ask people to combine elements from the cards in a three card spread into one drawing—using crayons and, if necessary, stick figures. I believe in involving as many senses as possible in tarot work, for different information comes from each. I’m speaking of many more senses then our normal five; for instance, Rudolf Steiner identified twelve. This drawing has some similarity to using a pendulum to allow our body’s memory to tell us where something’s been mislaid. Doing a quick drawing, especially with children’s crayons, puts our analytical minds aside and lets unconscious and bodily awarenesses manifest themselves. There are no mistakes in such drawings. When someone has miscalculated the space needed, so there’s no room to complete a figure’s body, then what is there and what is left out becomes very significant. Also, I’ve found this is the best way to learn how to integrate card meanings - at a very deep level.

Malcolm
Did it work similarly for PCS in her Tarot artwork or was she too constrained by Waite’s brief that she was following? To me, her “musical paintings” in particular were a bit like therapy.

Mary
Unfortunately I don’t know what Pixie experienced while creating the deck. I wish I did. Yet, it seems clear that her musical paintings were a kind of psychic training. She had a form of synesthesia, or crossing of the senses, in which she “saw music.” She said that, while listening to music, a scene would appear, as though through an aperture, and she would draw it exactly as she saw it. If she changed anything the opening would slam shut. So she learned to stay open to her visions, without trying to insert anything of her own. Despite this assertion, certain visual themes do appear over and over again in Pixie’s artwork. Nonetheless, it’s clear from The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, that Waite coached her strongly for the Major Arcana. For the Minors he gave her a composite list of meanings from several different, and often conflicting, sources, including some Grail stories (discussed later in this interview). Pixie’s great strength is that her depictions transcend the personal—something that many modern decks never achieve.

Malcolm
At the beginning of her career Pixie was happiest in creative mode when telling stories, and later when creating her musical paintings; you seem happiest, Mary, when someone "gets it" in a reading you've given and that they've worked at; or, to put it another way, when they grow in a psycho-spiritual sense. Both these depend on a strong connection with the "subconscious." Is this fair comment?

Mary
Again, I don’t think we can know what really made Pixie happy. But, it’s true that I personally am most happy with a reading when people find meaning in their experiences, reach insight and clarity regarding their goals, and discover possibilities for handling situations that are in alignment with those goals. This helps them meet whatever comes in the best possible way. It’s always better, that is, more empowering, when a person discovers such things for themselves rather than being informed by someone else.

Malcolm
You’ve been teaching Tarot since 1974 - I love Tom Kennedy's photo of you way back then! More recently you work with Tarot in an increasingly Jungian manner. Is this a mode you're entirely happy with or do you think you may explore fresh directions in response to modern pressures and demands?

Mary
I always want to explore new directions. But, I hope it’s not just in response to pressures and demands, even though these can help get me out of a rut. A while back I did several readings for people I barely knew using a Marseille-style deck. While the Marseille deck had never ‘spoken’ to me before, suddenly I was seeing patterns and getting unequivocal messages loud and clear. I passed these insights on as I saw them and was told that the information was extremely relevant and helpful. However, at the end of these readings I strongly felt that I hadn’t really given my best. That I had, in fact, short-changed these people by offering pat answers instead of the opportunity to come to their own realizations. I don’t say that my way is the only one, or the right way for others, or that I even always do it. It is, nevertheless, what gives a deep feeling of purpose, meaning and satisfaction to my tarot vocation.

Malcolm
One of Jung’s pupil’s ( Dr.Nicoll) held that "when a man’s overpowered by outer life, is influenced only by all that acts upon him from outside, and argues only from what he can see, then he is machine-driven by his senses, and internally, the wrong way round. He is dominated by external life and has no life in himself." Is this what you see your work with Tarot as helping redress?

Mary
No. I wouldn’t presume to suggest that an outer-related person is living the wrong way. It may be entirely appropriate for that person. And who really knows what goes on inside? I try to match energy and to work with people at whatever level they are functioning to help them find what can be most helpful in the moment.

I recognize that there are people who want the kinds of answers I can’t give. If possible, I’ll refer them to someone else who is more adept in that area. For instance, I wouldn’t try to counsel someone about buying stocks. And I don’t try to tell people when they will find their soul-mate or get married. I may, however, offer to help them discover what they are really seeking and what they can do to facilitate it.

What I find most difficult are querents who only want someone to tell them things they want to hear, especially when they are in deep denial about reality. It is not my work as a tarot reader to try and ‘fix’ them nor to give them what they want. Such people can be incredibly vulnerable to con artists. If they are not open to new directions and possibilities that lead away from their fixations, I will immediately end a reading with the explanation that my approach to tarot is not a good match with their needs. By the way, this has only happened a few of times in thirty-five years of reading the cards.

Malcolm
Right. When you do a reading for someone, she or he is sometimes taken aback by how much work s/he has to do! In your role as “spiritual midwife” or “midwife of the soul” is there room for giving people answers instead of helping them find answers for themselves?

Mary
Of course, although I tend to think of it more as offering options and possibilities. I try not to be absolute about anything. I use a wide range of techniques including my own interpretations of the cards and symbols. I also know a lot of very powerful self-development techniques and can often see from the cards where doing a particular practice will aid people in finding their own answers. So, I often give ‘assignments’ that are in keeping with people’s own interests and proclivities and that will help them continue in the directions they’ve indicated they want to go. One thing that’s vitally important is that before we begin, I clearly and succinctly tell querents my approach to giving readings and ask if they agree to go ahead.

Malcolm
How much do you see Tarot as a personal aid to developing one's own spirituality? How much do the people you read for see it the same way, or do the majority see the Tarot as a way of something/someone else providing "an answer"?

Mary
Most people come to a tarot reading hoping they can sit back and be given the answer on a silver platter—to have their life fixed for them (whether they admit this or not). And, paradoxically, most of them seem relieved to find they are going to have to work for what they get. It suggests that life is not set or pre-determined but is dependent upon their own will and efforts. “God/dess helps those who help themselves.”

Mary
As for Tarot aiding the development of spirituality, I wouldn’t put it in those terms. I think it can help bring us back to what’s truly meaningful and significant in our lives. It can help us see the learning we can gain from any situation and how everything is related to everything else. Tarot can help us gain a sense of purpose and direction. Luckily, living in California and reading mostly through tarot or pagan-related events, I rarely have a problem with people understanding this perspective.

I try not to bring spiritual didacticism into my readings unless the person themselves wants to operate at this level and holds the same values. I will echo people’s values back to them, to help them hear what they are saying. Even fundamentalist Christian (admittedly open-minded ones) have found my readings unobjectionable.

Malcolm
The BOTA deck and the RW/S deck have so many similarities in their artwork; how do you see this relationship?

Mary
Paul Foster Case wanted to make certain metaphysical principles and symbolism more explicit in his BOTA revision of the RWS Major Arcana, whether they were intentional in the original or not. I think he kept very close to the spirit of the RWS deck, improving slightly on it (with the help of artist Jesse Burns Parke). The BOTA Major Arcana is specifically designed for study and meditation. The RWS deck, with its pictorial scenes on all the cards, is much better for practical readings, without losing much of the metaphysical.

Malcolm
Mary, you've a pretty unique position in that you’re both an Arch-Priestess of Isis and an accomplished reader (and writer) of Tarot; you fully appreciate and practice the power of ritual and symbolism. How much of the interpretation we now make of the Rider Waite/Smith symbols has been added to it since 1909? Or is symbolism always an opened-ended system to which the "seeker" continually contributes?

Mary
Symbolism is an opened-ended system and new interpretations are always emerging. For instance, at the end of the 1960s and through the ’70s the Emperor and, even more, the Hierophant, took on very negative connotations of an oppressive patriarchy and a dogmatic, repressive religion. They stood for values that needed to be questioned and even rebelled against. By contrast, Waite believed the culmination of the work in his mystical Order was the marriage of the Hierophant with the Shekinah (Divine Feminine) in the inner temple found in the heart. It is these layers of symbolism and significance, going all the way back to Renaissance Italy, and even to Greco-Roman Alexandria and earlier, that make the tarot so rich. Of course, we continue to see new things as society and the world changes. I believe that the 21st century will bring something new to tarot that I can’t even begin to imagine - which is the whole point.

Malcolm
The Isis association reminds me - you've explored Tarot symbolism very deeply, and have seen it within the roots of western culture and religion in ancient Egypt. How much are the archetypes and symbols as portrayed by PCS in the Rider Waite/Smith Tarot deck timeless, or are they specific to modern times?

Mary
Some dislike the faux medieval style that Pixie used to illustrate the cards. Knights and kings in armor, castles and moats, gave it an old-fashioned look, even in 1909. Yet, this imparts a certain timeless quality to the deck. Furthermore, it adds a dimension that has been overlooked until I discovered it a couple of years ago: that of the Arthurian and Grail myths. The same year the deck came out Waite published his book, The Hidden Church of the Holy Graal. I felt sure there must be a connection and discovered that at least one and probably more of the Minor Arcana suits illustrate specific Grail legends and themes — as Waite recounted them in his book. I’ve outlined my findings in an article in Llewellyn’s 2006 Tarot Reader. This is completely in line with Pixie’s expertise, since she trained and worked primarily as a book illustrator. And, as I recently discovered, the style she used closely follows the style of other 19^th and early 20^th century illustrators of Arthurian and Grail romances. The result is the depiction of a timeless world of the imagination, peopled by archetypal figures that we recognize over and over again, no matter the current fashion (just as we recognized Camelot in the life of John F. Kennedy).

Malcolm
Any work to be published in the pipepline?

Mary
Not anything that I’m ready to talk about right now.

Malcolm
If you could choose for one of Pixie’s Tarot cards to come to life and accompany you on a desert island, which card would it be?

Mary
It’s a toss-up between Judgment and the Hermit. Judgment because then I wouldn’t be alone, and could enjoy the company of both other people and an angel. The Hermit because I would always be intellectually stimulated and I believe he’d know best how to survive and to guide my spiritual growth.

Malcolm
Mary, you always seem able to drop the "baggage" and go forward with a really positive and optimistic emphasis - if the last century was "Tower times," are you optimistic enough to see this one as "The Star"? If not, which card for this century?

Mary
Actually, I’d prefer seeing it as the time of the World card. It’s time we recognize that we are all one people, existing on one living planet, and equally blessed and significant in the eyes of God/Goddess/All-That-Is.

MM
Thank you Mary, for spending the thought and time considering the questions; I'm sure your answers raise many more questions for us!